Episode 182 - Mental Health Update, Anti-fragility and the Paradox of Happiness
Today I'm updating you on my mental health journey, sharing some happiness research, and sparking a conversation around what it means to grow from tough moments.
In this episode we discuss:
Reflections as I work on C-PTSD recovery
Anti-fragility in regards to happiness and overall wellbeing
10 Practical Principles of cultivating anti-fragility in your everyday life
The Paradox of Happiness
The SPIRE Model that helps promote an antifragile lived experience
Resources Mentioned during the show:
Transcript:
Hello friends and welcome back to the Mindful Productivity Podcast. This is episode 182 and I'm your host, Sarah Steckler. In this week's episode, we're going to be geeking out. I'm going to pour myself a cup of tea and we're going to be talking about some happiness research specifically around anti, fragility and The SPIRE model. This is really interesting stuff and I think you're going to get a lot out of it. And I'm also excited because I feel like this is an episode where we get to discover and learn a bit together. So a lot of this is brand new information to me and I want to share it with you and start a conversation around some of these topics because the way that we think about our happiness and the research that's been done that's really just a decade or so old is really just scratching the surface on what's possible for how we live our lives and how good we feel on a regular basis. So grab a cup of tea and let's get into this week's episode.
Welcome to the Mindful Productivity Podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Steckler and this is the place to be to live a more mindful and productive life. If you're ready to turn daily chaos into calm and start your days with intention, then get ready to join me as we dive deep into mindful living and personal productivity. It's time to connect with your true self so you can live the life you want to live. And it all starts now.
As promised, I'm about to pour myself a cup of this luscious peppermint tea. I have been having tea just about every night and it's really great and I'm actually recording this podcast episode pretty late at night which is not typically usual for me but I thought I'd pour a cup of tea cause I love this sound. This is one of my favorite sounds. It's like pure bliss so I thought I'd share it with you. Wonderful. I love tea so much and peppermint is one of my favorites so can calm down your stomach. So let me take a sip of this and let's get into some of this really cool happiness research and also just have a little tea talk little tea time together. So good. So I've been feeling lately like I need to be more aware of how to ground myself. I have found myself feeling a lot better. For those of you that may be here or interested in parts of the mental health journey that I'm on, I'm sure many of us are on. I started on some antidepressants and they have been life changing, very life changing. I'm feeling more like myself.
I am able to do a lot of things and I really want to preface this by saying that for most of my life growing up there was a huge stigma around using antidepressants and for most of my adult life I really wanted to avoid them and I thought that I didn't need them or I was somehow above that. And when I found out and was diagnosed with C-PTSD recently, I really got to a point in my life where I realized, no, I definitely need not only more therapy, but I also need to have some medicine to help me along the way. And I have been on Zoloft now for let's see here, November, December, January now, February. So coming up to my fourth month, and it's great. I feel great. And I know everyone's experience is different, and trying to find the right medication can be a hurdle. But I just want to share a positive experience because I feel like there's a lot of negative experiences out there, and those can be quite loud. And some of those kind of prevented me from getting the help I needed. And I've had a really lovely experience.
So I was not planning on telling you this. Here we are. I think it's the tea. I just feel like it's just you and me. I'm just in your little earbuds and we're just together. But I started on a pretty low dose of Zoloft, and it was my first time ever on antidepressants. And within a week, I mean, he told me, my psychiatrist told me it would take like a month. He's like, but it could work faster. And within a couple of days, even I felt completely different. Like, the chatter in my brain went away. I was able to fall asleep for a long time. I thought that I might have ADHD. And I found out that PTSD can mirror a lot of those similarities. So while I still struggle with a lot of ADHD related things, and I haven't been assessed for that specifically, I've noticed that this has helped me a lot, and that could very well be exactly what was going on, but just the ability to in the past, for example, when I was in a really low place, I would drop a pencil or spill a glass of water and then immediately be like, oh, my gosh, it would just throw me off the edge.
I would be so mad and upset, and I would spend what felt like forever just being so mad that I dropped a pencil or spilled something. And I couldn't always have the energy to pick it up or the energy to think about being able to pick that thing up or fix it, whatever was just, like, so overbearing. And it's wild to me that now if something so small like that happens before I can even get upset, I've already picked up the pencil. I've already wiped up the water. I've already brushed my teeth if I didn't want to. You know what I mean? It's like I did not realize the state I was in for so long. And so that's really been life changing. And as I think about that, I've also been really realizing, like, wow, what else is possible in terms of my happiness and my wellbeing. And so I was reading more about happiness. And it's really fascinating, too, because even in the past few decades, happiness research is a relatively new thing, right? We've studied depression and sadness and despair and other kinds of mental health issues and struggles for such a long time or for a longer time.
But happiness research is something that is relatively new, and it's very fascinating. And I always recommend the documentary. I saw it like a decade ago, so I don't know if it's still on Netflix, but the documentary is called Happier and it follows all these different people around the world. And these happiness researchers look at what makes people happy. And there's a couple of core components I've mentioned on the podcast before. One of them is like deep focus on something like when you're in the zone reading or you're knitting or you're out in nature. And another one is like relationship. So it's not always what we think it's going to be. But anyway, I found some more information and research on happiness. And I will link to some of the articles that I was reading. And you can obviously dive deeper into it, but I just kind of wanted to highlight some of these things. So all this information is out there, right? It's not like I'm the one that found this, but I wanted to surface this information and bring it to your attention because it's really, really cool. And hopefully this can spark a conversation with other people, with friends, with family.
And if you want to come over to Instagram and hit me up in the DMs, I'm @mindfulproductivityblog, I'd love to continue the conversation there, too. So I just think this is fascinating. So with all that hype, let's get into it. So the first thing I want to draw your attention to is this idea or this term called antifragility. And this is really, really fascinating to me. And please forgive me because I am probably not going to pronounce these names. Right. Of these authors. But the author, Nassim Taleb, he's the one that originally coined the term antifragile when it comes to the opposite of fragility in terms of resilience and how we get by in life. And there's a couple of different takes on this. So the first one I want to look at and I'm actually looking at some of these articles right now is, let me just read you this quote from Nassim, because this is really cool. This is very inspiring. He says some things benefit from shocks. They thrive and grow when exposed to volatility, randomness disorder and stressors and love, adventure, risk and uncertainty. Yet in spite of the ubiquity of the phenomenon, there is no word for the exact opposite of fragile.
Let us call it antifragile. Antifragility is beyond resilience or robustness. The resilience resists shocks and stays the same. The antifragile gets better. This property is behind everything that has changed with time. Evolution, culture, ideas, revolutions, political systems, technological innovation, cultural and economic success, corporate survival, good recipes, the rise of cities, cultures, legal systems, Equatorial forests, bacterial resistance, even our own existence as a species on this planet. I love that so much. It gave me chills when I first read it. And it really made me think of not just resilience, because one thing I want to say is when you've went through trauma, which if you're a human being, you probably have or will, I think there's a narrative around trauma or living through experiences that what doesn't kill us makes us stronger. And I really bought into that for a long time. And there's parts of that, there's areas or little sides of that that can have some truth to it. But I know for me that some of the things that I've gone through in my life that have been, like the deepest, darkest pits of despair, didn't make me more resilient. They made me sick.
They made me struggle. They made me hyper vigilant. They made me have night terrors. I won't go into all of that. But what I'm saying is, I think there's this narrative that if you go through a traumatic experience, it should make you stronger and it should make you better, and that you should come out of it on the other side, like some renewed gold, like, hardened version of yourself. That's better. And I just kind of want to call that out, that if you go through a meat grinder in life, you're not going to just come out the other end. Some brand new product of a human. You're going to be tenderized and you're going to be ripped apart, and you're going to have bruises, and you're going to need to heal. And I want to just preface this whole conversation by saying that I don't think the goal here in talking about antifragility is that we should look at every resistance or every trauma or every setback in our life is, oh, good. This is going to make me stronger. However, I do think it's interesting to look at the nuance of this and look at kind of the framework around this in terms of.
Let me come back to what he says. Let's see here. It's beyond resilience or robustness. In fact, there's another article here. This one's even better, I think, in terms of kind of breaking it down. Okay, here we go. So this is actually an article from Investopedia. So they're looking at antifragility from a financial standpoint, which is also interesting. But this says that some things benefit from shocks. They thrive and grow when exposed to volatility, randomness disorder and stressors and love. Yeah. Okay, so this is some of the stuff we read before. Yet in spite of ubiquity of the phenomena, there is no word for the exact opposite. Let us call it the anti fragile. Right. So it's beyond resilience. The resilient resists shock and stays the same. Yeah, this is the same quote. What I like though, again, I just want to read this first part. Some things benefit from shocks. They thrive and grow when exposed to volatility, randomness disorder and stressors and love, adventure, risk and uncertainty. Some things benefit from these things. And I just want to point out that there are likely things. I know there's things in my life I won't speak for you.
There are absolutely things in my life where I did benefit from chaos and uncertainty and I discovered parts of myself or took opportunities or chances because of those things, and I wouldn't have otherwise. The other thing that this Authorism compares anti fragility to as an example is Hydra. Now, this is a Greek mythology character that would grow two heads if one of them was lost. Right. Compared to other creatures that maybe could be completely killed off if their head was cut off. And then in this article it says, like the Hydra, an antifragile system does not rely on a single head. Right. That means reducing the number of potential bottlenecks and choke points with redundant systems and fail safes. These redundancies can seem inefficient if everything works perfectly, but nothing works perfectly. Oh my gosh, this reminds me so much. So much of how I work in my business and how I do things in terms of productivity and brain or brain dumps, rather within my brain up book. But specifically, I can't remember what episode this was where I was talking about how a lot of things in my business can feel like a duplicate thing.
For example, I write down stuff in a brain dump, right. I write down tasks and then I will put them in a planner, but I also put them in a project management system, specifically Notion. Right. And for a lot of people, this may seem redundant. Right. And not every single task gets written down and put in Notion, but it's the process of writing something down in a planner and then also putting it in Notion. That helps me get a better understanding of the task. And then also too, it's really fascinating because depending on what project I'm working on and how I'm working on, it creatively, sometimes I end up working more from a paper planner, like a physical planner, than I do in Notion, and it just ends up working better. And so that's kind of like my fail safe. Those are almost like the two heads for me with productivity is writing stuff down and using a digital way to plan. So it's a little bit abstract, but I thought that was really interesting here. This article also talks about different ways to consider what it means to create anti fragility in your life.
In fact, there's another article here and this person lists out. Yeah, I'll have to link this one too. I'll have all this in the show notes. They list out all these different areas from NASA's book. So he actually has a book called Anti Fragile Things That Gain from Disorder. So that looks really fascinating. And I definitely want to add this to my reading list. But in the book, there's a little summary here about some of the things, some of the core principles that can lead to a more, quote unquote anti fragile life. Right. So I'll just read these real quick. Sticking to simple rules. So this one's good because we overcomplicate so many things, right. So sticking to simple rules. The other one is building in redundancy and layers. No single point of failure again. And this also comes back to focus projects where you're really slowing down. And go check out that episode if you haven't already, because I dive deeper into how to map out a focus project and what they are. But when you do slow down in your business or in a creative project to really plan out like what are all your goals, what are your key performance indicators, all those things, it can feel a little like you're in the weeds.
Right. And it can feel a little redundant at times and repetitive. But what that does is that helps you build checkpoints in your life in business so that you can reach your goals and get things done and create those checkpoints. Right. So that you're not falling behind or you're not forgetting things. Again, no single point of failure. Let's see, the other one here is resist the urge to suppress randomness. This is really interesting. And I'm actually reading through these for the first time with you right here, right now. Totally new podcast structure format. So this one is really interesting because resist the urge to suppress randomness. That's fascinating to me because just like you want structure, right? I think that a lot of creativity and just happiness in general also comes from your ability to accept and acknowledge what is right. That's one of the core areas of mindfulness is observing and not trying to over control things, because I think we build a lot of stress and resentment in our lives when we try to control things that are outside of our locus of control or scope of control. So that's very fascinating. Make sure that you have your soul in the game.
That one's good. I think this just comes back to feeling like you're aligned or whatever way you want to use. You're aligned with what you're doing. Right. Like you don't feel like you're doing something immoral or you're going against your core ethics or values that can definitely, definitely not be going to cause a strain on anyone. Experiment and tinker take lots of small risks. This is beautiful. I really want to read this book now because I think it's really fascinating, especially as entrepreneurs, there's a lot of pressure to take a big leap. Right. And I've definitely talked about those things. I've done in my life. And I'm sure I've encouraged you as listeners to take leaps at some point, too. But we don't have to continually jump off a mountain in order to see success or in order to change our lives. Tiny, small changes can make all the difference. And then it says avoid risks that, if lost, would wipe you out completely. So this is that wonderful nuance between things, and I think it's an area that can sometimes be overlooked. In fact, gosh, I would love to read a whole research study on nuance.
I think it's part of the reason why the pandemic has been so stressful, because of all the myths and disinformation out there and the misunderstanding of what nuance is in general. But I digress. But this little gap in between here, between taking small risks. Right. But not taking risks where if we did lose, we couldn't recover or it would take us forever to recover. Right. So it's really weighing that cost, right? Like if you're going to start a new business, you don't have to say F you to your boss and walk out the door tomorrow without a plan and say goodbye to your maybe cushy salary and then risk not being able to make rent the next month. You don't have to do it that way, right? You could start your business on the weekends, you could work a couple of extra hours. You could possibly talk to your employer about the shift you're making, depending on your relationship and what your workplace is like. Again, you don't have to jump off a mountain to change your life. The next one is don't get Consumed by Data. This one's really fascinating because this is really important.
And I think that there is definitely a kind of like a tipping point when it comes to this. As someone that loves using notion and loves productivity, I think data points are really helpful. In fact, it's why I created the Energy Driver Habit tracker that shows you like it shows you those data points, right. Like how often are you drinking water and which day of the week is the best day for your various habits and what are your energy drivers? However, if all you're doing is doing things for the sake of checking them off or for the sake of adding them to your habit tracker, that's going to go on Pinterest or you're going to share on Instagram later, are you really living your life? Right. So don't get so consumed, not only with the presentation or the performative action of doing things to tell other people you did them, but also don't get consumed by data as the only metric of your life because there are so many intangible things that we all experience that you can't possibly measure on a chart or a graph or in a Google sheet. The next one is Keep your options open.
Always a good one. This one's a good reminder. Definitely true. I think this also comes back to on a daily basis, keep your options open and keep your options open with your mindset. I think I really struggle still like, you know, I'll have like a crappy morning and like Bella, my Bulldog, will be super difficult and then something won't go right. Or the power go out, will go out, or my Zoom link doesn't work or blah, blah, blah, right? And I get in this mindset of the whole day is ruined and everything, technology wise, is just messing up and nothing's going right. And sometimes I have to remind myself there's still like a million plus possibilities that your day could be really fantastic. There's still a bunch of chances that your day will get way better or that you'll remember it for something much more lovely than all the things that frustrated you. And also too, at the end of the day, sometimes we can have a really good day and then the end of the day sucks. And it's like, how do you want to remember your day? So not only keep your options open in terms of decisions and opportunities in your life, but also keep your options open with your mindset and what you think about and how your day could go or how your week could go or what could end up happening.
Or maybe you've hit every red light, but maybe you're going to hit every green light on the way home. Right? I just think that that's powerful. There's two more that they list here. The next one is focus more on avoiding things that don't work than trying to find out what does work. Oh, this is so good. Oh, my gosh. Okay, so I'm going to read this one more time. Focus more on avoiding things that don't work than trying to find out what does work. Okay. How many times have you sat down to do something that you've done before? Maybe in your business and you think to yourself, oh, you know what? Be nice to maybe improve this process or somehow create a template, or maybe I could make a fancy such and such to do this before I even do it. When doing all of that actually just keeps you from doing the thing. I think too, this avoiding things that don't work more than trying to find out what does can be. It's kind of like a procrastination cycle or loop. And it reminds me a lot of the same phrase, right? If it's not broken, don't try to fix it.
And I think there's a lot to be said for that. I think a lot of the time we want something new and exciting, we want something different, and we forget that a lot of these tried and true things work. And they are in the mainstream conversation. And we find them on blog posts and our therapists repeat them to us time and time again because they actually work. It reminds me of that Tik Tok with that song where it's like going on my stupid walk for my stupid mental health. Right. And how often we're told to move our bodies to help relieve stress and help with our mental health. But we're like, I don't think that's going to work, right? And then we do it and we're like, damn it, this is working. Okay, this next one or the last one is respect the old look for habits and rules that have been around for a long time. So actually, that's very similar to what I just said in that I think there's a lot of power in realizing that simplicity is very powerful. And that's his first point here. The first one I read was stick to simple rules, but also realize that in order to reach your goals or change your life or be happier, you don't have to reinvent the wheel.
And I also think that's important in life in business. I think as an entrepreneur, when I first started, I thought I had to somehow recreate some kind of brand new, groundbreaking researched framework in order to stand out. I remember really seriously thinking back in 2015 before I officially launched my business that how was I going to basically put together a research project to create something that I could publish, that I could teach people? And I'm thinking back to that, and I'm like, what a crazy concept. I mean, not really. I mean, people do that, right? But I was like, I remember thinking, do I need to write a dissertation or something or do new research in order for people to take me seriously? And I think that also just speaks to my wild perfectionism and all the other mindset shifts I had yet to embody at that point in time. But it's also to say that whatever you're creating in your life and business, whether you're an artist or whether you're creating a planner, we have this conversation in my publish with purpose course all the time that you don't need to recreate the wheel and you don't need to do something that has never been done.
In fact, what you're going to create is probably going to be similar to something else, but you're going to have your spin on it, right? You're going to do it in your way, with your branding, with your voice, with your lived experience that is going to affect and impact someone in a much different and deeper way than another planner or Journal, because they needed to hear from you in the way that you needed to present it. And the same thing goes for entrepreneurship, right? Again, it's not a free pass to copy people, but essentially in some way, shape or form. We are all just building on top of other things that people have done in the past. So anti fragility, very fascinating stuff. Now, there is a couple of other things I want to touch on that I have listed out here in my little notion notes for today, if I can find that here. So I want to talk about this other author. He's written several books. His newest one is also about happiness and his name again, forgive me if I don't pronounce it correctly, but it's Tall Ben Shahar. And he talks about happiness.
And one of the questions he asks is what conditions can we put in place to increase the likelihood that we grow from hardship? Right. So it's similar to that antifragility idea, but it's like, what can we put in place to increase the likelihood that we grow from hardship. Right. So as an example, if you had a garden or you were planting something like a different crop and people have done this for centuries. Right. And you knew that in the winter the farm was going to freeze over and that your seeds were going to be vulnerable and that maybe your plants might die. And that, in fact, your grandparents and their grandparents and their grandparents all struggled with the same issue. So much so that each year they tried different ways of protecting plants. Right. Building greenhouses or using different fertilizer or soil or whatever or watering things, more or less. I know nothing about agriculture, but you get the point. And what they ultimately were able to do was find ways to preserve their crops and preserve the growth process and what was produced from them and essentially increased the likelihood that they could grow from hardship.
Now, again, anti fragility is not just the resilience to hardship. Right. But how can you improve from it? And this is a very interesting question because it makes me think of specifically as an entrepreneur, every time that you do something difficult in your business or outside of your comfort zone, there's these moments where you feel scared, shitless, and maybe really uncomfortable, and maybe you just want to go hide under your covers. But then there's also these little bubbles of time and realizations where you go, oh, my God, I did that. Oh, my God, that was me. That was me. I did that. I did that. I was capable. I didn't think I could do that. Holy crap, I'm amazing. And then you kind of like go back into retreat. But what if you could take those moments when you experience those feelings getting outside of your comfort zone and you could wrap those up and store them somewhere in your mind, or you could write them down similar to a gratitude list and come back to them. Right. So, for example, and there's an episode way back, oh, gosh, I think it might be like one of the first ten episodes in the podcast where I talk about the importance of creating a landing plan.
And that's essentially one of the things that you can do. And for me, what I've done is every time I launch something, every time I like when I did a summit last year or when I do a live webinar, whatever, anything I've done to launch, it's always outside of my comfort zone. It doesn't always go the way I wanted to. Sometimes I blow myself out of the water and I'm like, wow, I hit my income goal. I maxed out what I thought I could do. But what I always do is I always write down, like, what went well, what didn't go well, what did I learn? What did I notice that I was capable of? And I take those Nuggets out, and then the next time I do a launch, I come back to those notes and I go, oh, yeah, you're capable of really hitting your goal. In fact, if you really laid out your numbers this time and you really got clear on this and that, and you really set a goal, you could probably reach it, you could probably double or triple your launch goal this time. And so really coming back to figuring out what those conditions are that you can put in place when you're doing something new can help you grow from hard times.
Right. And now a launch is not necessarily at all similar to an actual hardship in life. However, if I look back on hard times in my life and loss and all those things, I can look at areas where, okay, there are places where I can grow from this. Right? There's lessons learned. So I really like that. Now, tall Ben Shahar also talks about how happiness resides on a continuum and how the goal is not to be happy all the time. In fact, this is very fascinating. He talks about the paradox of happiness and how the pursuit of happiness can actually make us less happy and more likely to experience depression. And it kind of makes sense. Right. Because if the goal is to always be one way all the time, it's not only not sustainable or realistic, but you're not going to meet it and therefore you're going to be upset. And it's really fascinating that we put this pressure of happiness on ourselves when we don't pressure ourselves to feel any other one way all the time. We're not like, oh, I'm not angry today, I was angry yesterday, or I'm not sad today.
I'd like to be sad again. Right. We know that there are moments of pure, unfiltered joy when something incredible happens or when we're laughing hysterically. And we know that that's not constant. And so we don't expect it. But for some reason, with happiness, we can maybe have it all the time. And I think we can have a constant state that is more stable, that may feel happier over time. But happiness is also the ability to deal with hardship. Right. And when he talks about the paradox of happiness, he also talks about valuing happiness as a good thing. Sorry. How we value happiness as a good thing can be problematic. Right. So again, if you're only pursuing happiness because you think it's the best thing that's going to set you up for a setback. So what he recommends is actually pursuing happiness indirectly, right. And he uses the example of a rainbow. So you can't necessarily look, you can't look directly into sunlight. Right. Or directly into a light, but indirectly, you get that spectrum of the rainbow when it's shining through something, you see all the different colors and you get to experience it in a different way.
And so instead of trying to run right into happiness, one of the things we can do are what are all the little things to create happiness indirectly. And I think that could be a really fun Journal prompt to explore more, too. So the last thing he talks about with this is also breaking things down into different elements that can allow us to enjoy indirect elements of happiness and raise overall levels of happiness. So when you think about indirect happiness, it's like, what are the things that you do on a daily basis that make you feel good, make you feel energized, or make you laugh instead of asking yourself, Am I happy today or tomorrow or asking other people that what are the things that you're doing that feel good today? What are the things that you're doing that help you feel energized? The other thing that he talks about and I thought this was interesting. It reminds me a lot of if you've ever done like a selfcare assessment or a wellness assessment with a wellness wheel, these areas feel very similar to that. But it talks about the Spire model, which can be attributed to triggering the antifragility system within you, so to speak.
So the SPIRE model consists of these five different areas, which is spiritual, physical, intellectual, relational, and emotional. So for spiritual, that's the sense of meaning and purpose in life, right. Both at work and home, where you're finding meaning that can help you overcome barriers for physical. This is also pertaining to the amount of stress in your life. And one thing that he says, I love this quote is the problem is not the stress itself, it's the lack of recovery that is so good. Think about how often maybe you've had a job in the past or one now where you're like constantly stressed out or a situation. It's not so much that you can't handle the stress. It's that you're not giving yourself time to recover. You're not giving yourself time to rest on a regular basis. So the problem is not the stress itself, it's the lack of recovery. The other part of the Spire model is the eye, which is intellectual wellbeing. And he talks about how people who are curious and who ask questions tend to be happier, and they also tend to live longer when they're deeply engaged in text, art, nature, that kind of stuff.
And I think what he means by that is like reading that's when people are really find a lot of happiness and I know that's true for me, like just being curious about the world, being excited to learn and try new things and have new experiences. Relational wellbeing is the quality time we spend with people we care about and who also care about us and then emotional, right? So embracing both painful emotions and also cultivating gratitude. When we appreciate the good in our life, we have more of it, he says. Happiness is whole being so we actually covered quite a bit today in the podcast. We talked about antifragility, we talked about different ways to incorporate that into your life. We talked about the paradox of happiness, about how the Spire model can help you with antifragility and how happiness resides on a continuum. So I will have links to all these articles and some of the things I listed out in today's podcast over on the blog mindful productivity podcast. You can find a direct link to it in whatever platform you're listening to. This podcast episode in this is 182 if you're searching for it and I hope this episode was helpful.
If you've been enjoying this podcast, please shout it from the mountaintops that you're listening and share it with your friends and family. I would love to have more people have these types of conversations again. For more resources, you can always visit Mindful productivity podcast, all the other show notes and episodes there as well. Thank you so much for listening this week and I'll be back here next Monday with a brand new episode. Talk to you then.
